Re-weighting the Neutral Sound score
You guys need to de-emphasize Frequency Response Consistency (FRC) when calculating overall scores. Yesterday.
While it’s a useful metric for people wanting to know how Frequency Response might change with positioning, it bears by far the least weight in determining how “neutral” a headphones presentation of music is/can be.
The fact that it’s weighted as highly as Treble Accuracy is, frankly, ridiculous for numerous reasons. Your weighting for Neutral Sound is all in need of serious retuning. Let’s start with FRC though:
1) FRC is something that, inherently, is a measure of potential, not present, results. Many people simply will not have the issues with FRC that the test specifically measures because most people will be putting the headphones on correctly. Which brings me to…
2) You do not share how you’re positioning the headphones, therefore the tests do not illustrate how the sound changes when a specific change is made (for example, like if yr using a pair of glasses to break the seal, a common occurrence for many in the audiophile hobby). This renders the usefulness for those who want to know how positioning changes tonal balance nil. For all we know you could be lifting the headphone away from the ear to completely break the seal, rotating it forward/backward on the X-axis, moving it up or down, etc. Which, yes, would change the tonal balance, but is not relevant to the experience of the end-user because no one is doing those things when putting headphones on. The point is we don’t know what you’re doing, how dramatically your positioning diverges from the normal position, and I’d argue having a test without indicating what change is correlated to what position is less valuable than having no test at all.
Now on to the other big problems:
3) The fact that Imaging is the lowest weighted metric, a measly 4% is transparently atrocious, especially because within this metric lies the sub-metric of channel amplitude/frequency matching (the most important element in someone’s perception of Left/Right positioning). Not only should this be much, MUCH higher than FRC in weight, but it should also be higher than Soundstage and Distortion. This quality you’ve deemed worthy of being only a sub-metric within Imaging is actually both more easily/consistently measurable, as well as very easily discernible to the end-user. Distortion is similarly measurable, but not easily discernible to most listeners (especially 2nd order harmonics that result from distortion, which is what I assume you are testing). Soundstage is discernible, but, while you’ve endeavored to great lengths to make it so (and I applaud you for it; not many have the cojones to attempt such a feat), it is not yet consistently measurable. And the simple fact is: Soundstage never extends more than a few inches our from your head with any headphone (with conventional non-binaural recordings), therefore weighing it so highly unnecessarily gimps ALL of your headphones scores. Especially IEMS. Because neither are as important to the end-user’s perception of “detail” or “neutrality,” I’d say it is absolutely critical that these things are re-weighted slightly or, preferably, massively, in addition to FRC.
4) Weighting FRC so high has the effect of rating headphones that don’t deserve a high rating, highly; and rating better headphones poorly. This is a massive problem, by my estimation, simply because the point of this site is purported to be a consumer aid to point us in the direction of the best things we can get for our money. Calling Audio-Technica’s M50x “The Best Closed Back for Audiophiles” is woefully incorrect, and has been for a few years. It’s terrible comfort (important for audiophiles, who listen for long periods), weird midrange presentation (wide boost between 100-200Hz, massive dip @300Hz, nasty sharp peak @4.3kHz), and poor channel matching have made it a joke in audiophile circles, who for years have dethroned it as the “default recommendation for a closed back headphone,” in favor of AKG K371
5) Speaking of which, AKG K371 has better Bass Accuracy and Mid Accuracy scores than M50x and somehow has a LOWER Neutral Sound score than ATH-M50x, which is by no metric a “neutral” headphone?! How is this possible?! Maybe the answer is somewhere in this post? ;-)
Anyways, knock Bass/Mid Accuracy to 25% weight each, Treble down to 15% (due to it being naturally difficult to measure and being more prone to deviation from person to person based on individual anatomy), Imaging up to 15% (because it is critically important for the reasons mentioned above), Distortion to 10%, Soundstage to 5% and either remove FRC completely and make Soundstage 10% or give it the last 5%. Your ratings will be more accurate to the Neutral Sound criteria you are purporting to try to meet, and will stop people from thinking HD800S is the most neutral open headphone (spoilier: it isn’t, it’s a treble detail cannon) and thinking ATH-M50x is the most neutral closed back (it isn’t).
- 21010
I’m following up on my original question that prompted Adam Babcock’s response to this thread on November 27. Between the C4 and S90D, I went with the latter. I am just a normal guy who doesn’t use instruments or advanced calibration techniques beyond what I read here. I primarily watch Blu-ray UHD HDR content and had a 2022 Sony LED TV. I decided to forgo the Dolby Vision in the C4 because I believed Adam’s assertion that the QD-OLED screen was superior to the WOLED screen. This was further echoed by the sales rep where I bought my TV (he had no incentive to sell me one or the other because they were both priced the same). After three months with the S90D, I have strong conviction that I made the right decision. The movies I watch are so beautiful and detailed, it is difficult to imagine it being much better with Dolby Vision. In this case, I believe Adam’s comment that the quality of the screen outweighs the impact of not having Dolby Vision. Could I be proven wrong? Yes. But the only way to do that is to have the C4 next to my S90D playing the exact same content. Ignorance is bliss I guess. I think it is this reason why you don’t hear people with bad things to say about either the C4 or the S90D – you can’t go wrong if you are primarily watching UHD HDR content on these TVs.
I wonder if we have/had the same Sony LED from 2022 (X90K). Good TV, but I’ve had a couple issues that I am considering putting in a claim for with my Best Buy warranty. If I could get an upgrade out of the deal it would be between the C4 or S90D (I want to go OLED) and I’m leaning towards S90D if incomes down to it v
- 21010
I’m following up on my original question that prompted Adam Babcock’s response to this thread on November 27. Between the C4 and S90D, I went with the latter. I am just a normal guy who doesn’t use instruments or advanced calibration techniques beyond what I read here. I primarily watch Blu-ray UHD HDR content and had a 2022 Sony LED TV. I decided to forgo the Dolby Vision in the C4 because I believed Adam’s assertion that the QD-OLED screen was superior to the WOLED screen. This was further echoed by the sales rep where I bought my TV (he had no incentive to sell me one or the other because they were both priced the same). After three months with the S90D, I have strong conviction that I made the right decision. The movies I watch are so beautiful and detailed, it is difficult to imagine it being much better with Dolby Vision. In this case, I believe Adam’s comment that the quality of the screen outweighs the impact of not having Dolby Vision. Could I be proven wrong? Yes. But the only way to do that is to have the C4 next to my S90D playing the exact same content. Ignorance is bliss I guess. I think it is this reason why you don’t hear people with bad things to say about either the C4 or the S90D – you can’t go wrong if you are primarily watching UHD HDR content on these TVs.
I’m really happy to hear that you’re enjoying your TV, thanks for posting this update with your thoughts!
- 21010
We recently put out an updated article that breaks down the benefits of DV versus other formats like Samsung HDR10+. The gist of it is that it’s not as important with a TV of this caliber. That being said, you really can’t go wrong with either TV. I’m a 4k Blu-ray collector as well, and when facing the same decision I went with the LG over the Samsung, but it’s really a personal preference thing. It also depends on the type of content you’re watching. Nature documentaries like Planet Earth and anything animated is more likely to be mastered in a wider color space, so those will stand out better on the Samsung. With most other content the difference isn’t as noticeable.
I’m following up on my original question that prompted Adam Babcock’s response to this thread on November 27.
Between the C4 and S90D, I went with the latter. I am just a normal guy who doesn’t use instruments or advanced calibration techniques beyond what I read here. I primarily watch Blu-ray UHD HDR content and had a 2022 Sony LED TV. I decided to forgo the Dolby Vision in the C4 because I believed Adam’s assertion that the QD-OLED screen was superior to the WOLED screen. This was further echoed by the sales rep where I bought my TV (he had no incentive to sell me one or the other because they were both priced the same).
After three months with the S90D, I have strong conviction that I made the right decision. The movies I watch are so beautiful and detailed, it is difficult to imagine it being much better with Dolby Vision. In this case, I believe Adam’s comment that the quality of the screen outweighs the impact of not having Dolby Vision.
Could I be proven wrong? Yes. But the only way to do that is to have the C4 next to my S90D playing the exact same content. Ignorance is bliss I guess. I think it is this reason why you don’t hear people with bad things to say about either the C4 or the S90D – you can’t go wrong if you are primarily watching UHD HDR content on these TVs.
- 21010
Does this hold true for 4k Blurays with Dolby Vision? I hope this doesn’t qualify as buying advice. As a 4k Blu-ray collector, the LG C4 sounds like it gets a slight edge, but I also enjoy gaming, and the S90D gets the edge in this regard. Am I missing out going with TV over the other? As a more general question, what are the advantages of DV and DTS vs. the wider color gamut and other advantages of a QD-OLED?
We recently put out an updated article that breaks down the benefits of DV versus other formats like Samsung HDR10+. The gist of it is that it’s not as important with a TV of this caliber. That being said, you really can’t go wrong with either TV. I’m a 4k Blu-ray collector as well, and when facing the same decision I went with the LG over the Samsung, but it’s really a personal preference thing. It also depends on the type of content you’re watching. Nature documentaries like Planet Earth and anything animated is more likely to be mastered in a wider color space, so those will stand out better on the Samsung. With most other content the difference isn’t as noticeable.
- 21010
Yes, I’d even say this holds especially true if you mainly watch 4k UHD content. The wider color gamut of the Samsung is a significant noticeable difference between it and the C4, especially when watching native 4k content that takes advantage of wider HDR color spaces. As for audio support, nope, if you’re connecting your player directly to your AVR then this doesn’t matter at all.
Does this hold true for 4k Blurays with Dolby Vision?
I hope this doesn’t qualify as buying advice. As a 4k Blu-ray collector, the LG C4 sounds like it gets a slight edge, but I also enjoy gaming, and the S90D gets the edge in this regard. Am I missing out going with TV over the other?
As a more general question, what are the advantages of DV and DTS vs. the wider color gamut and other advantages of a QD-OLED?
Good evening! I would want to know which one will be better for HDR gaming I have a ps5 and I love to see my games looking awesome and the best way possible. Im really used to LG OLED for many years but right now im upgrading to a newer TV I dont know if not having Dolby vision is worth the change tu Samsung is it going to affect drastically? Mainly I play games and watch tv series and anime on Netflix, Crunchyroll, Prime video or airplay in Apple TV, Im aiming for a 55’‘ model and right now the Samsung is cheaper in my country for like 150usd. What are your thoughts?
Hello! Help with personalized buying advice is something our experts offer only via our insider forums. We do have lots of self-service tools and recommendation articles that should be helpful as well though!
- 21010
Good evening! I would want to know which one will be better for HDR gaming I have a ps5 and I love to see my games looking awesome and the best way possible. Im really used to LG OLED for many years but right now im upgrading to a newer TV I dont know if not having Dolby vision is worth the change tu Samsung is it going to affect drastically? Mainly I play games and watch tv series and anime on Netflix, Crunchyroll, Prime video or airplay in Apple TV, Im aiming for a 55’‘ model and right now the Samsung is cheaper in my country for like 150usd. What are your thoughts?
Good evening, I have a question I own a ps5 pro, I want one of these 2 s90d or c4 I see a lot and I’m confused I want it to be very nice image quality up to the left I want nice colors and not colorless nice response to games and be a dog the tv which of the 2 do you want me to take?
Hello! Help with personalized buying advice is something our experts offer only via our insider forums. We do have lots of self-service tools and recommendation articles that should be helpful as well though!